Can anyone provide a modern Ranger build?
Moderator: Moderators
Can anyone provide a modern Ranger build?
I'll probably be playing in a 4e game for a bit. I don't really know anything about building a 4e character, but I can probably use whatever books and ignore errata. The Ranger sounded pretty cool and strong, so I was wondering if anyone could lend me a hand. There's no need to go too complicated or anything, just if you could point me to or show me a bog standard Ranger build or two, that would be quite wonderful.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
What levels are you going to and are you using Essentials stuff or not? These are really important questions.
Basic optimization look-ups are in total disarray because waves of errata and Essentials have left no one knowing what the rules are and thus no one being able to tell other people what is and it not kosher.
Most Ranger builds fall into two categories: the archer who does enough damage to matter and grabs enough movement to never ever get targeted by enemy attacks; and the double bastard sword wielding blender who simply murders enemies faster than they threaten her. Both have their place, but the second one is thrown way out of whack by the item rarity rule in Essentials.
-Username17
Basic optimization look-ups are in total disarray because waves of errata and Essentials have left no one knowing what the rules are and thus no one being able to tell other people what is and it not kosher.
Most Ranger builds fall into two categories: the archer who does enough damage to matter and grabs enough movement to never ever get targeted by enemy attacks; and the double bastard sword wielding blender who simply murders enemies faster than they threaten her. Both have their place, but the second one is thrown way out of whack by the item rarity rule in Essentials.
-Username17
We aren't using Essentials. This post is a little old because dragon_child helped me a lot, but I was under the impression that level didn't matter that much because you're basically doing the exact same thing every level (throwing out a Twin Strike). We're going for the bastard sword blender.
I don't think anyone in the group cares about errata. If errata makes something suck I could probably say "hey, errata makes this suck" and then just use whatever is printed.
I'll get back to you on level. The basic idea at this point is:
- Be that shifter with +2 str / +2 wis
- At wills: Twin Strike, Hit and Run.
- Level 1 Encounter: Two Fanged Strike
- Level 1 Daily: Jaws of the Wolf
And a spread like 17/10/14/10/14/8
I'm aware I'm not giving too many details here and I apologize for that; I'll just wait before asking anything else until I get a full set of creation details.
I don't think anyone in the group cares about errata. If errata makes something suck I could probably say "hey, errata makes this suck" and then just use whatever is printed.
I'll get back to you on level. The basic idea at this point is:
- Be that shifter with +2 str / +2 wis
- At wills: Twin Strike, Hit and Run.
- Level 1 Encounter: Two Fanged Strike
- Level 1 Daily: Jaws of the Wolf
And a spread like 17/10/14/10/14/8
I'm aware I'm not giving too many details here and I apologize for that; I'll just wait before asking anything else until I get a full set of creation details.
Last edited by Surgo on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
The STR/WIS ranger build is dead if you're playing with errata. Pit Fighter got nerfed not to work with non-fighter powers. If you're playing melee, you can do STR/DEX and go with Stormwarden, Kensei, or Morninglord (Forgotten Realms Players Guide) requires a cleric multiclass with worshipping Amaneutor) or you can do STR/CON and go (Blade Master(???, check the monk PPs), forces you to do heavy blades. It's in Psionic Power) or Lyrander Wind-Rider (Eberron Player's Guide, requires Mark of Storm feat and marries you to a lightning weapon unless you're a Genasi). Still, you don't want to completely tank WIS especially if you're playing without errata. A lot of good ranger powers and a couple of great feats run off of it.
However, since you're starting at low level, I recommend doing half-orc instead. The shifter stance is very tempting but it's too dangerous to rely on until you build up a hitpoint bulge. That +1 to AC or a saved feat is worth more IMO. If you want to grab Hero of Faith though it's pretty much a wash, you'll need a 15 wisdom anyway--HoF is only an option for unerrata though.
Protip: Skip playing in the game until the DM starts you at level 2. Then get this equipment:
3- Frost Spiked Chain
2- Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold (Eberron Player's Guide)
1- +1 Cloak of Protection
1- +1 Magic Hide
Ignore reckless and bloodclaw weapons for now if your DM isn't playing with errata. You're a glass cannon at low levels; those things are much, much better in paragon. If you are playing with errata, stick with frost weapons anyway.
First of all, ditch the idea of grabbing two bastard swords or two anything. It's a very viable plan at paragon when you have enough accumulated wealth from the broken treasure rules if you're not playing under errata. Shit is just too expensive. If you're in it for the long haul, don't worry, you can flip-flop back once you have enough wealth to abuse owning two weapons. There's really not much point though if you're going to play with errata I must warn. Use your first feat to get your ass a double weapon. Either take up the Spiked Chain Proficiency feat (if you don't plan to multiclass, check the 2009 Dragon Compendium), a Double-Sword (if you're not playing with errata and can't find the source for the former, check the adventurer's vault), or a Zuulat (Eberron's Player Guide). Remember, it's Spiked Chain TRAINING, not proficiency, otherwise you won't be able to use it as a double-weapon.
Your feats and powers until level 6 or so will look like this:
1) Your Double-Weapon Proficiency Feat.
2) Weapon Focus (weapon focus will add more damage than weapon expertise at low levels)
4) Versatile Expertise, or Weapon Expertise if you can't find it. (PHB3)
6) If you didn't pick up the Spiked Chain Training feat then pick Battle Awareness. Otherwise pick up Skill Power (from Player's Handbook 2) or if you have the wisdom for it Hero of Faith (from divine power).
Your first level encounter is fine, but by level two you want to retrain it to Off-Hand Strike (MP1).
Level 2, Pick up Invigorating Stride (MP2). This lets you use your second wind as a move action every encounter and gives you +WIS shifting in the same action. Gold at low levels.
Level 3, pick up Distruptive Strike (PHB). This throws down a hefty attack penalty and is an off-action attack.
Level 5, pick up Snarling Wolf Stance (MP2). This is a minor action stance that lets you attack someone as an immediate action if they attack you. If you're regularly doing one-encounter workdays, I recommend retraining Disruptive Strike to Ruffling Sting (MP1), another minor-action attack.
As you might have guessed, the metagame looks very different depending on whether or not you're using errata or not. If you're not however then you can't use the character builder and will have to do everything by hand. I hope you have money for your powergaming habit.
However, since you're starting at low level, I recommend doing half-orc instead. The shifter stance is very tempting but it's too dangerous to rely on until you build up a hitpoint bulge. That +1 to AC or a saved feat is worth more IMO. If you want to grab Hero of Faith though it's pretty much a wash, you'll need a 15 wisdom anyway--HoF is only an option for unerrata though.
Protip: Skip playing in the game until the DM starts you at level 2. Then get this equipment:
3- Frost Spiked Chain
2- Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold (Eberron Player's Guide)
1- +1 Cloak of Protection
1- +1 Magic Hide
Ignore reckless and bloodclaw weapons for now if your DM isn't playing with errata. You're a glass cannon at low levels; those things are much, much better in paragon. If you are playing with errata, stick with frost weapons anyway.
First of all, ditch the idea of grabbing two bastard swords or two anything. It's a very viable plan at paragon when you have enough accumulated wealth from the broken treasure rules if you're not playing under errata. Shit is just too expensive. If you're in it for the long haul, don't worry, you can flip-flop back once you have enough wealth to abuse owning two weapons. There's really not much point though if you're going to play with errata I must warn. Use your first feat to get your ass a double weapon. Either take up the Spiked Chain Proficiency feat (if you don't plan to multiclass, check the 2009 Dragon Compendium), a Double-Sword (if you're not playing with errata and can't find the source for the former, check the adventurer's vault), or a Zuulat (Eberron's Player Guide). Remember, it's Spiked Chain TRAINING, not proficiency, otherwise you won't be able to use it as a double-weapon.
Your feats and powers until level 6 or so will look like this:
1) Your Double-Weapon Proficiency Feat.
2) Weapon Focus (weapon focus will add more damage than weapon expertise at low levels)
4) Versatile Expertise, or Weapon Expertise if you can't find it. (PHB3)
6) If you didn't pick up the Spiked Chain Training feat then pick Battle Awareness. Otherwise pick up Skill Power (from Player's Handbook 2) or if you have the wisdom for it Hero of Faith (from divine power).
Your first level encounter is fine, but by level two you want to retrain it to Off-Hand Strike (MP1).
Level 2, Pick up Invigorating Stride (MP2). This lets you use your second wind as a move action every encounter and gives you +WIS shifting in the same action. Gold at low levels.
Level 3, pick up Distruptive Strike (PHB). This throws down a hefty attack penalty and is an off-action attack.
Level 5, pick up Snarling Wolf Stance (MP2). This is a minor action stance that lets you attack someone as an immediate action if they attack you. If you're regularly doing one-encounter workdays, I recommend retraining Disruptive Strike to Ruffling Sting (MP1), another minor-action attack.
As you might have guessed, the metagame looks very different depending on whether or not you're using errata or not. If you're not however then you can't use the character builder and will have to do everything by hand. I hope you have money for your powergaming habit.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Minor action (off-hand strike) and out of turn attacks (fox's cunning) will basically always give you a higher DPR than the standard action double attack powers like Two-Fanged strike. This is true as long as your average weapon die + static non-weapon bonuses are higher than your stat mod. Which should be always.
As a melee ranger your AC will suck hard forever. You want to get it higher because enemies WILL pound on you after you splatter one of them in a single round. You have two options:
Pump Dex and keep Wis modest.
Pump Con and burn feats for chain/scale/plate proficiency.
I prefer the former, for three reasons: Wis riders are almost never important or don't get much better if you have a +2 vs a +5 (and pit fighter's gone), initiative is never bad, Stormwarden turns your dex mod into damage, and it's not actually a bad idea to carry dwarven throwers/farbond spellblades so you can just whing them at people if your MC likes to hose you on mobility (even though they're heavy thrown and should use strength, you have to use dex to twin strike with them).
If you go shifter, you'll want a blood fury axe. You will be tempted to make this a waraxe or double axe or something. This is wrong. It will be a +1 handaxe that you never upgrade and tie to your belt with a string like you're 5 and mommy doesn't want you to forget your mittens. This way you can quick-draw it, activate, and drop it. The other options are too horrible to contemplate.
You have three weapon options:
Spiked Chain - Requires multiclass [spiked chain], which prevents multiclass avenger cheese. But gives you REACH, which is delicious and will aid you in your quest to not get splattered because of crap AC.
Bastard Sword - +3 proficiency and 1d10 damage die. Once you can afford it life is good.
Waraxe - If you really want a d12 damage die, or decide to use Rending.
Double Weapon - for early in life when you can't afford two good weapons. Get a double version of whatever you plan on using later in life so you don't have to swap feats around.
If you want MC to murder your character, multiclass into Avenger and use Rending Waraxes. Use the oath of enmity then use twin strike, off hand strike, and action point for Jaws of the Wolf. Have rending waraxes for extra effect. Make sure MC doesn't have anything sharp within reach before you do this the first time.
As a melee ranger your AC will suck hard forever. You want to get it higher because enemies WILL pound on you after you splatter one of them in a single round. You have two options:
Pump Dex and keep Wis modest.
Pump Con and burn feats for chain/scale/plate proficiency.
I prefer the former, for three reasons: Wis riders are almost never important or don't get much better if you have a +2 vs a +5 (and pit fighter's gone), initiative is never bad, Stormwarden turns your dex mod into damage, and it's not actually a bad idea to carry dwarven throwers/farbond spellblades so you can just whing them at people if your MC likes to hose you on mobility (even though they're heavy thrown and should use strength, you have to use dex to twin strike with them).
If you go shifter, you'll want a blood fury axe. You will be tempted to make this a waraxe or double axe or something. This is wrong. It will be a +1 handaxe that you never upgrade and tie to your belt with a string like you're 5 and mommy doesn't want you to forget your mittens. This way you can quick-draw it, activate, and drop it. The other options are too horrible to contemplate.
You have three weapon options:
Spiked Chain - Requires multiclass [spiked chain], which prevents multiclass avenger cheese. But gives you REACH, which is delicious and will aid you in your quest to not get splattered because of crap AC.
Bastard Sword - +3 proficiency and 1d10 damage die. Once you can afford it life is good.
Waraxe - If you really want a d12 damage die, or decide to use Rending.
Double Weapon - for early in life when you can't afford two good weapons. Get a double version of whatever you plan on using later in life so you don't have to swap feats around.
If you want MC to murder your character, multiclass into Avenger and use Rending Waraxes. Use the oath of enmity then use twin strike, off hand strike, and action point for Jaws of the Wolf. Have rending waraxes for extra effect. Make sure MC doesn't have anything sharp within reach before you do this the first time.
Last edited by Sashi on Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
By the way, one other point of advice, unless you're not playing in a party with any other strikers, the other person is a ranger themselves, or they're picking up some cheesed-out build themselves like a Critfisher, don't play a ranger. It'll cause resentment at the table and shrivelled wangs.
What do I mean by having two weapons is viable if you're playing without errata? Simple. You engage in what I like to call the Square of Cheese.
Main-Hand Weapon: Bloodclaw Bastard Sword or Rapier. I personally prefer Rapier, because if you're using frostcheese you can grab Nimble Blade. If you're doing STR/CON however and plan to go into epic stick with bastard sword.
Off-Hand Weapon: Frost Bastard Sword/Rapier.
Gauntlets: Reckless Spiked Gauntlets.
Optional: If you're STR/CON and took that +CON elemental monk PP or you're a stormsoul genasi (meaning you picked up Shocking Flame), pick up the Crown of the Radiant Sun AND the Ring of the Brilliant Storm. That way you get to add +2 damage roll to all of your attacks and get to reroll all of your damage rolls. They're in the Gifts to the Queen item set in Adventurer's Vault 2.
I'm choosing a Stormsoul Genasi who is a Ranger|Cleric hybrid who is going STR/DEX and also picked up Mornlinglord to illustrate. They also have Symbol of Divine Light, too, which increases an enemy's vulnerability to radiant damage by 5.
So anyway. They activate shocking flame to add +2 light damage to all of their melee attacks, which is jawsome, but the real appeal is to give their melee attacks the Lightning keyword. Which in turn gets modified by the Crown of the Radiant Sun to give it the radiant keyword. This is important because we don't have to pick up a radiant weapon specifically now.
Notice the power on the reckless gauntlets. They don't actually require you to use the weapon to get the bonus and moreover it lasts until the end of your turn. And it's a free action. It's a -2 to AC, but at this assumed level (level 19) it's also a +8 to damage. Also note the strict wording on the Frost weapon property: it adds the keyword to the POWER, not to the ATTACK. So even though you have just one bastard sword both swings on Twin Strike get to benefit from Wintertouched/Lasting Frost. Finally Bloodclaw is the same way as your Reckless Weapon. You don't need to use the weapon, you just need to pay the price as a free action. Also note that the frost weapon is specifically in the off-hand, that way it can be used for your minor-action attack powers.
So let's ladle it all up. Twin Strike damage roll for a double-bastard sword combo on a morninglord:
main: 1d10 + 8 (reckless) + 8 (bloodclaw) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (shocking flame) + 2 (weapon focus) + 4 (enh) + 10 (radiant vuln.) + 5 (symbol of divine light) + 3 (Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold) + 2 (gifts to the queen item set) + 5 (called shot, from the Prime Punisher set you don't know about) + 4 (item, Iron Armbands of Power)
Off-hand weapon has the same dizzamage bonus. So:
2d10 + 116 + 2d6 (HQ). Reroll and take highest. So around 140 average damage on a twin strike. If you throw in an off-action attack of some sort this is enough to ice enemies of your level. Since I hybrid classed cleric I have Weapon of Astral Flame, Mighty Hew instead of Disruptive Strike (level 1 off-action cleric attack at 2W+str
), and some awesome cleric utility powers at the cost of only losing a feat (two feats actually, one which I gained back by not having to pick up a multiclass for cleric for Morninglord).
So yeah. Errata really changed the metagame.
What do I mean by having two weapons is viable if you're playing without errata? Simple. You engage in what I like to call the Square of Cheese.
Main-Hand Weapon: Bloodclaw Bastard Sword or Rapier. I personally prefer Rapier, because if you're using frostcheese you can grab Nimble Blade. If you're doing STR/CON however and plan to go into epic stick with bastard sword.
Off-Hand Weapon: Frost Bastard Sword/Rapier.
Gauntlets: Reckless Spiked Gauntlets.
Optional: If you're STR/CON and took that +CON elemental monk PP or you're a stormsoul genasi (meaning you picked up Shocking Flame), pick up the Crown of the Radiant Sun AND the Ring of the Brilliant Storm. That way you get to add +2 damage roll to all of your attacks and get to reroll all of your damage rolls. They're in the Gifts to the Queen item set in Adventurer's Vault 2.
I'm choosing a Stormsoul Genasi who is a Ranger|Cleric hybrid who is going STR/DEX and also picked up Mornlinglord to illustrate. They also have Symbol of Divine Light, too, which increases an enemy's vulnerability to radiant damage by 5.
So anyway. They activate shocking flame to add +2 light damage to all of their melee attacks, which is jawsome, but the real appeal is to give their melee attacks the Lightning keyword. Which in turn gets modified by the Crown of the Radiant Sun to give it the radiant keyword. This is important because we don't have to pick up a radiant weapon specifically now.
Notice the power on the reckless gauntlets. They don't actually require you to use the weapon to get the bonus and moreover it lasts until the end of your turn. And it's a free action. It's a -2 to AC, but at this assumed level (level 19) it's also a +8 to damage. Also note the strict wording on the Frost weapon property: it adds the keyword to the POWER, not to the ATTACK. So even though you have just one bastard sword both swings on Twin Strike get to benefit from Wintertouched/Lasting Frost. Finally Bloodclaw is the same way as your Reckless Weapon. You don't need to use the weapon, you just need to pay the price as a free action. Also note that the frost weapon is specifically in the off-hand, that way it can be used for your minor-action attack powers.
So let's ladle it all up. Twin Strike damage roll for a double-bastard sword combo on a morninglord:
main: 1d10 + 8 (reckless) + 8 (bloodclaw) + 5 (lasting frost) + 2 (shocking flame) + 2 (weapon focus) + 4 (enh) + 10 (radiant vuln.) + 5 (symbol of divine light) + 3 (Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold) + 2 (gifts to the queen item set) + 5 (called shot, from the Prime Punisher set you don't know about) + 4 (item, Iron Armbands of Power)
Off-hand weapon has the same dizzamage bonus. So:
2d10 + 116 + 2d6 (HQ). Reroll and take highest. So around 140 average damage on a twin strike. If you throw in an off-action attack of some sort this is enough to ice enemies of your level. Since I hybrid classed cleric I have Weapon of Astral Flame, Mighty Hew instead of Disruptive Strike (level 1 off-action cleric attack at 2W+str
), and some awesome cleric utility powers at the cost of only losing a feat (two feats actually, one which I gained back by not having to pick up a multiclass for cleric for Morninglord).So yeah. Errata really changed the metagame.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
The problem is that it's the very definition of an EZ mode class. Since the ranger's superiority is built in at a fundamental level, you really have to do something boneheaded like actively avoid all the multiattack powers. This means the Ranger is superior to all other strikers almost purely by virtue of having written "ranger" on his character sheet.Lago PARANOIA wrote:By the way, one other point of advice, unless you're not playing in a party with any other strikers, the other person is a ranger themselves, or they're picking up some cheesed-out build themselves like a Critfisher, don't play a ranger. It'll cause resentment at the table and shrivelled wangs.
You've brought up Pit Fighter a few times -- think you could give a quick explanation of how that works and when it comes online? Thanks for all the help!
The books are owned by other people. Filling out a sheet by hand never bothered me, and it'll probably kick me in the ass enough to make a proper template for it on the wiki.Lago wrote:If you're not however then you can't use the character builder and will have to do everything by hand. I hope you have money for your powergaming habit.
Last edited by Surgo on Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Pit Fighter is a "Paragon Path" from the basic book. It requires that you be a Fighter Class, which means that as a Ranger it requires that you flush a feat down the toilet to get "multiclass" as a Fighter unlocked. It gives what passes for reasonably decent abilities in 4e. At 11th level you get +1 to AC, and the Action Surge boost is pretty exciting too - on the turn you action surge you get to add half your level to the damage of all your standard action attacks - which since you are a Ranger will be four attacks. So... in 60% of combats you'll inflict up to 20 damage with that power at 11th level.
But the real selling point is the 16th level ability, where you add your Wisdom modifier to damage on every single attack you ever make. Which is going to be 2-4 attacks per turn, every round, in every combat. It adds up to a lot of damage. Also: the Paragon class' actual powers are ones you'd just barely consider taking anyway.
The errata makes the class features only add to fighter class attack powers, which makes it completely useless for a Ranger instead of completely awesome.
-Username17
But the real selling point is the 16th level ability, where you add your Wisdom modifier to damage on every single attack you ever make. Which is going to be 2-4 attacks per turn, every round, in every combat. It adds up to a lot of damage. Also: the Paragon class' actual powers are ones you'd just barely consider taking anyway.
The errata makes the class features only add to fighter class attack powers, which makes it completely useless for a Ranger instead of completely awesome.
-Username17
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
If all you care about is DPR then there are alternatives, but Pit Fighter was noteworthy because all of its features were helpful rather than just one or two. Even the level 11 encounter power is at least slightly better than using Twin Strike, which is not the case for any of the other encounter powers I'm listing. Well, Battle Engineer's encounter power is useful like 5% of the time and you just might activate the Son of Mercy's encounter power now and then. Like seriously, in that list I'm about to provide, most of those turkeys are completely pointless except for the damage boost that they provide.
If you're going without errata and insist on being a melee ranger, your alternatives for DPR are as follows:
Then again, if you're playing without errata, you could actually get very far just being a Tempest Fighter, especially if you hybrid.
If you're going without errata and insist on being a melee ranger, your alternatives for DPR are as follows:
- Hybrid classing with Runepriest (adds +CON or +WIS to all damage rolls depending on whether you were hit between your last turn or missed by an enemy attack). More of an additional damage option than a paragon path, but something to think about. Runepriest powers universally suck total balls though, so you are seriously going to be 'down' one daily, one At-Will (not that you care), and one encounter power.
- Hybrid classing with Warden, pick up Hobbling Strike (slows the targets of your Quarry) and Crippling Crush (adds +CON damage when you slow a monster with a mace or hammer attack). Unlike Runepriests, Wardens actually have some pretty kickass powers and moreover their hybrid marking feature isn't totally fucking crippled like every other defender. And you get an extra hit point per level.
- Hybrid classing with Warlord for the Resourceful Leader Commanding Presence, then heading into Infernal Strategist (+INT or +CHA damage to a target you flank, recommended if you're not doing the Prime Punisher thing, Martial Power). If you take the feat 'Fight On', too, which gives you another Inspiring Word then you seriously have like 85%/95% of the ranger and warlord features rather than 45%/45% of features like most hybrid classing.
- Battle Engineer (Eberron Player's Guide, adds +INT elemental damage to your attacks and also some very nice class features)
- Son of Mercy (Dragon magazine #370, adds +WIS damage + slow to one targets that you mark until the marking power ends, then you get it back)
- Stormwarden -- does not actually add +DEX damage to all of your attacks, making it kind of gimped for nova rounds. There's an encounter stance power that gives you +2 to attacks though which is very boss, only problem is if you're abusing daily power refreshment it's useless. With errata, Stormwarden is very powerful, without it I would just pass.
- Kensei -- +4 damage / +1 attack with a single weapon, which is actually about what you'd get out of those +STAT classes. The problem is that the AP features and the powers absolutely chew. If you're doing something very funky with your stats like trying to do the Polearm Gamble + Momentum thing while still being a decent Battlerager this is worth a look.
- Lyrander Storm-Rider: Adds +1 to attack and +CON damage as long as you use a lightning weapon or somehow manage to get thunder damage, Eberron Player's Guide. Being restricted to a lightning weapon SUCKS, but Mark of Storm is the motherfucking shit, especially with Polearm Momentum. Rest of the class features are laughably useless; LSR gives its damage bonuses at level 11, which is a consideration.
- Morninglord: Requires you to be a divine class that worships Amaneutor (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide deity). Level 16 feature gives your foe vulnerability 10 radiant if you hit them with a radiant attack. If someone else wants to be this class then you don't need to take it, but if the people at your table are cheese-impaired then you're going to have to be the godfather of the Radiant Mafia yourself.
- Soaring Blade: Monk paragon path, Psionic Power. Adds +CON fire, cold, or lightning damage which is a very important consideration if you want to have a cheesy weapon property like Bloodclaw + Reckless while still having frostcheese or Radiant Mafia. The other features are useless.
- Blade Banshee: Adds +WIS thunder damage to all of your melee attacks. Has a very nice level 11 feature which applies a -2 penalty to enemies you hit with both of a two-weapon attack. Unfortunately, it requires you to be an Eladrin of all things.
Then again, if you're playing without errata, you could actually get very far just being a Tempest Fighter, especially if you hybrid.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
-
A Man In Black
- Duke
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:33 am
Unless you count rulings as errata, this only works if you hybrid because taking a Fighter/Warden/Paladin/etc. multiclass feat only makes you a Fighter/Warden/Paladin/etc., not an actual Defender as is required by Son of Mercy.Lago PARANOIA wrote:[*]Son of Mercy (Dragon magazine #370, adds +WIS damage + slow to one targets that you mark until the marking power ends, then you get it back)
Now, that's retarded, but it just goes to show how incredibly inane some of the rulings and errata are.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
True, but honestly, hybrid-classing ranger|warden isn't that big of a deal. Wardens actually have a very nice collection of powers (though it's a very mild downgrade from the Attacks on the Run + Snarling Wolf Stance + Blade Cascade you get) and they get their off-action attack encounter power pretty early. Not to mention the +level in AC. If you're not planning to go the Prime Punisher route, you can also take Hybrid Talent - Armored Might: Wildblood or Lifespirit and be able to add your wisdom modifier to your AC in light armor, along with some other assorted goodies. If you're still interested in defending for some reason, your mark is still rather punishing.
Rangers, like wizards, are very fortunate that the bulk of their class's effectiveness lies in their powers and not their class features. Unlike wizards, though, STR is a very common primary stat and most melee feats are class-agnostic.
Rangers, like wizards, are very fortunate that the bulk of their class's effectiveness lies in their powers and not their class features. Unlike wizards, though, STR is a very common primary stat and most melee feats are class-agnostic.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
If you don't want to go the pre-Errata pit fighter path, Bugbear Hybrid Ranger/Rogue gets pretty brutal. Pump Str and Dex (your rogue powers all run off Dex), with Wis as a tertiary. Pick up Hybrid Talent and take Brutal Scoundrel. You now deal +Str damage on all your SAs. This sets you up to take Brutal Scoundrel Advantage at Epic, which effectively gives you +Str damage on all your attacks with CA (which should be all of them). Assuming you started with an 18 in Str after mods, you can expect +8-9 damage, making this the best damn damage feat you can take. Your other feats are the usual staples: Weapon Focus/Expertise, Weapon Prof. (something good. Bastard swords are solid, but you have options here), Two-Weapon Fighting/Opening, anything else to boost your DPR and accuracy. If your Wisdom is solid, your NADs should be pretty decent. Paragon/Epic Defenses can help if you need to shore them up.
As to rogue powers, you're really here for three attacks:
Press the Advantage - This level 1 daily is a free action attack that you can use whenever you bloody somebody. Off-action actions attacks are king for you, and this is pretty solid. You'll keep this for the rest of your career.
Low Slash - This level 3 encounter power is ridiculous, giving you reasonable damage and mobility hindrance all as a minor action.
Tumbling Strike - This level 25 encounter power gives it all. Shift your move, making a pretty decent attack at any point in the shift, and it comes in as a minor action. This is your opening attack in every fight, because it lets you drop 4 attacks in one round with no dailies.
Everything else is up to you. Look for mobility and evasion-related powers for your utilities.
As for ranger powers, Twin Strike is obvious (your Rogue at-will is basically irrelevant), and Blade Cascade will be one of your dailies, no questions asked. You'll climb up the Off-hand Strike -> Off-hand Deception -> Nonchalant Collapse chain for encounter powers, replacing as you go. Your third daily is open. If your Dex is about equal with your Str, you can grab Five-Missile Dance at 29 and get a second five-attack daily, or snag Ultimate Confrontation to stack on your nova rounds. Or stick with something from before. Attacks on the Run, Cruel Cage of Steel, etc are all solid attacks.
As for Paragon Path, go Hybrid Paragon and pick up the Ranger TWF as your second Hybrid Talent if you want to dual-wield bastard swords, or snag Prime Shot and all the feats for it if you want to go that route. Retrain out of Low Slash into one of your other minor action attacks so that you can pick it up as your Paragon Encounter power at 11th. Your other powers are basically open. Again, look for solid attacks (if your Wis is good, Hunter's Confrontation could be a nice damage boost in boss fights) and mobility-enhancing or defensive utilities.
Your MO in combat is simple. Move up to the opponent (or tumbling strike once you get it) and drop one of your encounter minor attacks + twin strike. Continue doing this each round until you run out of minor action attacks. Once tumbling strike is on the scene, you have a 4-attack opening, with 2 more rounds of 3 attacks a pop (assuming you move each round) without touching dailies. With dailies, you can score 11+ attacks in one round if you nova.
Edit: Fixed typo.
As to rogue powers, you're really here for three attacks:
Press the Advantage - This level 1 daily is a free action attack that you can use whenever you bloody somebody. Off-action actions attacks are king for you, and this is pretty solid. You'll keep this for the rest of your career.
Low Slash - This level 3 encounter power is ridiculous, giving you reasonable damage and mobility hindrance all as a minor action.
Tumbling Strike - This level 25 encounter power gives it all. Shift your move, making a pretty decent attack at any point in the shift, and it comes in as a minor action. This is your opening attack in every fight, because it lets you drop 4 attacks in one round with no dailies.
Everything else is up to you. Look for mobility and evasion-related powers for your utilities.
As for ranger powers, Twin Strike is obvious (your Rogue at-will is basically irrelevant), and Blade Cascade will be one of your dailies, no questions asked. You'll climb up the Off-hand Strike -> Off-hand Deception -> Nonchalant Collapse chain for encounter powers, replacing as you go. Your third daily is open. If your Dex is about equal with your Str, you can grab Five-Missile Dance at 29 and get a second five-attack daily, or snag Ultimate Confrontation to stack on your nova rounds. Or stick with something from before. Attacks on the Run, Cruel Cage of Steel, etc are all solid attacks.
As for Paragon Path, go Hybrid Paragon and pick up the Ranger TWF as your second Hybrid Talent if you want to dual-wield bastard swords, or snag Prime Shot and all the feats for it if you want to go that route. Retrain out of Low Slash into one of your other minor action attacks so that you can pick it up as your Paragon Encounter power at 11th. Your other powers are basically open. Again, look for solid attacks (if your Wis is good, Hunter's Confrontation could be a nice damage boost in boss fights) and mobility-enhancing or defensive utilities.
Your MO in combat is simple. Move up to the opponent (or tumbling strike once you get it) and drop one of your encounter minor attacks + twin strike. Continue doing this each round until you run out of minor action attacks. Once tumbling strike is on the scene, you have a 4-attack opening, with 2 more rounds of 3 attacks a pop (assuming you move each round) without touching dailies. With dailies, you can score 11+ attacks in one round if you nova.
Edit: Fixed typo.
Last edited by Echoes on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For CaptPike: 4E was a terrible game and a total business failure. These are facts that I am stating with absolute certainty.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
You only get to have hybridized sneak attack on your rogue attacks. So no Twin Strike + STR bonus shenanigans.
But yeah, if you decide to hybrid class, you want to avoid classes that depend on you hitting with powers from your class in order to activate your feature. Also if you hybrid class a non-warlord/warden, your party members need to understand that despite your title that you can NOT provide any backup in other 'roles' if you still believe in such a thing.
Long story short, for low-level game shenanigans, you really can't beat the combo of:
Level 2 Ranger|Warden
A STR/CON or STR/WIS race, depending on your prefence. Your tertiary stat should be a 15 for dexterity if you're in it for the long haul however. If you don't care about the +1 to AC, are not going into epic, and you'd rather have the +1 to attack and reach you can put a 13 for dexterity and take Spiked Chain Training instead.
Feats: Hybrid Talent: Armored Might (whichever you want), Weapon Proficiency: Zuulat
Powers: Invigorating Stride, Off-Hand Strike, Thorn Strike, Twin Strike, Form of Mountain's Thunder.
Items: Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold, +1 Frost Zuulat, +1 Magic Hide, +1 Amulet of Protection
Especially if you run one-encounter workdays (common at really low levels, otherwise inexperienced parties have a high chance of TPK), you'll be tough as all fuck. You'll have the AC and hit points of a sword and board paladin but you'll still be doing nearly-full ranger damage; form of Mountain's Thunder makes up for Jaws of the Wolf at low levels, because resist 3 is very helpful. You could seriously serve as a full-time defender if you wanted to; you'd do at least as good of a job as fighters of all people, at least throughout all of heroic tier.
As far as future feats go, invest in the weapon focus and expertise chain for now. Depending on whether you want to have more toughness, you may want to pick up Mark of Warding (EPG), which increases the defense bonus granted by powers by +1 and gives you an extra -1 penalty to your marks.
Your level 3 encounter power will be Disruptive Strike (freakishly effective if you went STR/WIS, adds 3 + WIS penalty as an immediate interrupt 1W+STR attack if it hits), meaning that you retrain Off-Hand Strike (MP, vanilla minor-action attack) to Wildblood Frenzy (PHB2, gives out two 1W+STR attacks; not awesome, but it's a placeholder). At level 7 you retrain Wildblood Frenzy back to Off-Hand Strike and pick up Guardian's Pounce (PP). Your level 5 daily attack power will be Snarling Wolf Stance (MP2). At level 6, your utility attack power will be Earthguard (+1 to defenses as a daily stance) (PHB2) or Wilding Strength (minor action daily, +1d6 to all attacks and damage rolls until the end of your next turn) (PP). If you pick up the former then be sure to pick up the Mark of Warding feat; if you're running a two-encounter workday it's like having a +2 to AC for no good reason. Along with making your marks marginally more punishing.
At level 9, if you want big-time nova damage pick up Attacks on the Run (PHB) for Ranger. It's really an OMG power as far as 4E powers go; you get two 2W + STR attacks AND a move in there, which when combined with an off-action attack power will regularly ice enemies of your level. If you have enough muscle and you're lucking for more durability, pick up Form of the Sirocco (PP); it's encounter-long resist 5 damage, lets you shift through enemy squares, and lets you shift 2 squares as a move action. And it even throws a save-ends blind in there for good measure if you want more solo-mashing action.
Level 10, take Guardian's Attack (PP), which lets you regain a guardian form encounter attack power. Or take Ranger's Parry (MP2), which gives you a +4 to AC as an immediate interrupt and gives you ten extra temporary hit points.
Skip the first few sessions until everyone is at level 2 and the DM lets you start at that level, because a lot of DMs are really stingy on the treasure and starting at level 2 gives you a huge bulge on treasure.
But yeah, if you decide to hybrid class, you want to avoid classes that depend on you hitting with powers from your class in order to activate your feature. Also if you hybrid class a non-warlord/warden, your party members need to understand that despite your title that you can NOT provide any backup in other 'roles' if you still believe in such a thing.
Long story short, for low-level game shenanigans, you really can't beat the combo of:
Level 2 Ranger|Warden
A STR/CON or STR/WIS race, depending on your prefence. Your tertiary stat should be a 15 for dexterity if you're in it for the long haul however. If you don't care about the +1 to AC, are not going into epic, and you'd rather have the +1 to attack and reach you can put a 13 for dexterity and take Spiked Chain Training instead.
Feats: Hybrid Talent: Armored Might (whichever you want), Weapon Proficiency: Zuulat
Powers: Invigorating Stride, Off-Hand Strike, Thorn Strike, Twin Strike, Form of Mountain's Thunder.
Items: Siberys Shard of Lasting Cold, +1 Frost Zuulat, +1 Magic Hide, +1 Amulet of Protection
Especially if you run one-encounter workdays (common at really low levels, otherwise inexperienced parties have a high chance of TPK), you'll be tough as all fuck. You'll have the AC and hit points of a sword and board paladin but you'll still be doing nearly-full ranger damage; form of Mountain's Thunder makes up for Jaws of the Wolf at low levels, because resist 3 is very helpful. You could seriously serve as a full-time defender if you wanted to; you'd do at least as good of a job as fighters of all people, at least throughout all of heroic tier.
As far as future feats go, invest in the weapon focus and expertise chain for now. Depending on whether you want to have more toughness, you may want to pick up Mark of Warding (EPG), which increases the defense bonus granted by powers by +1 and gives you an extra -1 penalty to your marks.
Your level 3 encounter power will be Disruptive Strike (freakishly effective if you went STR/WIS, adds 3 + WIS penalty as an immediate interrupt 1W+STR attack if it hits), meaning that you retrain Off-Hand Strike (MP, vanilla minor-action attack) to Wildblood Frenzy (PHB2, gives out two 1W+STR attacks; not awesome, but it's a placeholder). At level 7 you retrain Wildblood Frenzy back to Off-Hand Strike and pick up Guardian's Pounce (PP). Your level 5 daily attack power will be Snarling Wolf Stance (MP2). At level 6, your utility attack power will be Earthguard (+1 to defenses as a daily stance) (PHB2) or Wilding Strength (minor action daily, +1d6 to all attacks and damage rolls until the end of your next turn) (PP). If you pick up the former then be sure to pick up the Mark of Warding feat; if you're running a two-encounter workday it's like having a +2 to AC for no good reason. Along with making your marks marginally more punishing.
At level 9, if you want big-time nova damage pick up Attacks on the Run (PHB) for Ranger. It's really an OMG power as far as 4E powers go; you get two 2W + STR attacks AND a move in there, which when combined with an off-action attack power will regularly ice enemies of your level. If you have enough muscle and you're lucking for more durability, pick up Form of the Sirocco (PP); it's encounter-long resist 5 damage, lets you shift through enemy squares, and lets you shift 2 squares as a move action. And it even throws a save-ends blind in there for good measure if you want more solo-mashing action.
Level 10, take Guardian's Attack (PP), which lets you regain a guardian form encounter attack power. Or take Ranger's Parry (MP2), which gives you a +4 to AC as an immediate interrupt and gives you ten extra temporary hit points.
Skip the first few sessions until everyone is at level 2 and the DM lets you start at that level, because a lot of DMs are really stingy on the treasure and starting at level 2 gives you a huge bulge on treasure.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
In short, in heroic tier hybridizing Warden and Ranger for a melee expert requires you to give up a little damage potential but gives you nearly-full defender capabilities and a lot more durability. I recommend it to a friend.
Or because I'm on TGD, I also recommend it to you assholes.
Or because I'm on TGD, I also recommend it to you assholes.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
@Lago: Yeah, for Brutal Scoundrel. Brutal Advantage gives you +Str to damage on all attacks that have CA where you don't use Sneak Attack. Since perma-CA is pretty easy to set up (Frostcheese, anyone?) that means every attack.
For CaptPike: 4E was a terrible game and a total business failure. These are facts that I am stating with absolute certainty.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
Again, Echoes, that won't work with you using your ranger powers because you can't sneak attack off of your ranger powers.
Unless you're seriously trying to make the argument that, say, a rogue with Brutal Advantage who used sneak attack for their first attack but then used a minor action attack and an AP attack to make extra attacks with combat advantage would get the +STR damage. I suppose that a strict reading of the rules would work that way--but seriously, if you want to add extra damage all of the time with a hybrid that badly you can just hybrid Fighter and pick up tempest technique and agile tempest. You'd get +1 attack/+4 damage at the same time, which works out to slightly more DPR. And you would also get your bonus damage much, much earlier. Along with +1 to AC for no good reason.
Unless you're seriously trying to make the argument that, say, a rogue with Brutal Advantage who used sneak attack for their first attack but then used a minor action attack and an AP attack to make extra attacks with combat advantage would get the +STR damage. I suppose that a strict reading of the rules would work that way--but seriously, if you want to add extra damage all of the time with a hybrid that badly you can just hybrid Fighter and pick up tempest technique and agile tempest. You'd get +1 attack/+4 damage at the same time, which works out to slightly more DPR. And you would also get your bonus damage much, much earlier. Along with +1 to AC for no good reason.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
I don't think you know what Brutal Advantage is. It's an Epic feat (that requires you to be a Brutal Scoundrel rogue) that adds your Str bonus to damage to any attacks you make with CA where you don't use SA. So yes, the rogue in your example could do exactly that.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Again, Echoes, that won't work with you using your ranger powers because you can't sneak attack off of your ranger powers.
Unless you're seriously trying to make the argument that, say, a rogue with Brutal Advantage who used sneak attack for their first attack but then used a minor action attack and an AP attack to make extra attacks with combat advantage would get the +STR damage. I suppose that a strict reading of the rules would work that way--but seriously, if you want to add extra damage all of the time with a hybrid that badly you can just hybrid Fighter and pick up tempest technique and agile tempest. You'd get +1 attack/+4 damage at the same time, which works out to slightly more DPR. And you would also get your bonus damage much, much earlier. Along with +1 to AC for no good reason.
Looking back, I realize I typo'd in my original post, and will correct it. That may be the source of the misunderstanding.
For CaptPike: 4E was a terrible game and a total business failure. These are facts that I am stating with absolute certainty.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
I fucking know what Brutal Advantage is. Like I said, by a strict reading of the rules you could do that. But personally, I do not like giving people advice to min-max based strictly on a technicality because it just won't be applicable to many games. It's like doing Pun Pun.
Anyway, it doesn't even matter. It's a level 21 trick that makes you take levels in a mostly-turkey hybrid pair. You are seriously better off doing the Prime Punisher route, which can be done earlier and adds more damage. Or if you are building for the long-haul, you could hybrid class Fighter and go Tempest Fighter, which will give you the damage bonus you crave RIGHT NOW and in the long run will give you extra damage equal to that feat combo anyway. Not to mention that Fighter has better powers.
Anyway, it doesn't even matter. It's a level 21 trick that makes you take levels in a mostly-turkey hybrid pair. You are seriously better off doing the Prime Punisher route, which can be done earlier and adds more damage. Or if you are building for the long-haul, you could hybrid class Fighter and go Tempest Fighter, which will give you the damage bonus you crave RIGHT NOW and in the long run will give you extra damage equal to that feat combo anyway. Not to mention that Fighter has better powers.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
-
A Man In Black
- Duke
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:33 am
And that's why this whole exercise fails. Errata plus two semi-compatible editions plus the usual RPG player tendency to eliminate certain options for being too cheesy/a technicality/etc. has shattered any hope of having the kind of common ground for optimization that the Character Builder originally promised.Lago PARANOIA wrote:But personally, I do not like giving people advice to min-max based strictly on a technicality because it just won't be applicable to many games.
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
That Ranger|Warden combo is off the hook, even (especially) at high levels. Form of the Autumn Reaper (+Str necrotic) + Master of the Hunt (+Wis) + Lawbreaker's Doom (+Wis) just makes enemies fucking explode.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
That's why if you want to min-max it's best to stick to hard numbers that can't be refuted. Even though you could get the same overall damage by going the Prime Punisher or Tempest Technique route, those are better because there's no holes for the DM to poke in your build. He can't say 'I don't agree with your dodgy interpretation' he can only go 'I'm banning it because I say so!'A Man In Black wrote:And that's why this whole exercise fails.
Remember, nerds are a non-confrontational group so if you force the DM to have to grow a pair and admit that he's being an arbitrary bastard rather than going 'sorry, reasonable doubt' you're on much better ground.
That is the essence of practical min-maxing.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
-
Lago PARANOIA
- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
How's that ranger combo working out, by the way.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.